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Pie Corbett

Pie Corbett is a former primary headteacher, whose pupils regularly won awards for fiction and poetry writing. He is well-known as an outstanding trainer and has worked with the Primary National Strategies to develop the Talk for Writing training materials. He is currently developing this approach across the curriculum with Julia Strong. Pie and Julia have also been developing the approach for use in secondary schools.

We are running primary and secondary conferences on the Talk for Writing approach with Pie and Julia for 2010. For more information

In his interview Pie tells us more about Talk for Writing and his concerns about literacy levels in the UK today.

Twelve million adults in the UK do not have the literacy skills expected at age 11. How important is primary literacy in reducing this statistic this for the future?

If children move on to secondary education without confidence as readers and writers then they are going to find it very hard to make progress in literacy as well as other areas of the curriculum. By that point, a very real lack of confidence begins to erode their chances. It is crucial that children leave primary schools as confident readers and writers. One of our main tasks in primary schools has to be to secure sufficient competency, coupled with a love of reading and writing for this will open up their further education and pass on a lasting joy.

Literacy is clearly a key influence on the future success of the nation, as well as individual success. Do you think literacy is primarily an issue for schools or should it be seen as a social justice issue and treated as a cross governmental priority?

When I was a child, we lived in a two-up, two down. We had no bath - it was a tin tub in the back yard. The toilet was at the end of the yard. The first six years of my life, we used to go over the road twice a day and fetch water from the well. We were too poor to own books. However, every night we were read a story, and those stories came from books, and those books came from the library. It was being read to that made the difference to me and I would say that the reason that I eventually became a teacher, a headteacher, an inspector and a writer, I can track back to our weekly visit to the library. Without that library, the world of literacy would not have opened up for me. Literacy is essential for a healthy, thriving society that gives everyone a chance. All children deserve the right to an imaginative and literate childhood. To reduce the long tail end of illiteracy, I do think that we have to tackle this in an orchestrated manner and ensure that goes beyond it being seen as merely a school issue. It is too important and I would love to see further work on this to establish a full frontal, coherent approach. 

Improving writing is the priority for many schools, do you feel that reading and particularly speaking and listening have been overshadowed within many schools’ curriculums?

There has been a major effort to improve standards in writing and we still have a long way to go. However, this has often been at the expense of reading not receiving sufficient focus. Neither will really flourish without speaking and listening. I am a passionate believer in the power of storytelling which should lie at the heart of every primary school. Children learning, retelling and creating new stories orally is the most effective way I know to really have a dramatic impact on their writing and reading. I suspect too that one hour a day (or thereabouts) is not actually sufficient. Some schools are finding that a specific writing session and a reading session every day is helpful, coupled with a very strong focus on ‘talk for writing’.

You are well known for your development of the Talk for Writing approach in schools. What is the philosophy behind this approach and what impact have you seen in schools?  

This is a very large topic. Learning stories orally (and poems and non-fiction texts) builds an imaginative world and lays down the linguistic patterns that only avid readers usually acquire. There are 3 key aspects known as the 3 “eyes”.

1. Imitation – experiencing and learning a text orally.
2. Innovation – adapting the text to create something new.
3. Invention – drawing on the internal bank of texts to make up something totally new.

There are only two things that I have come across in the last 35 years that have a dramatic effect on progress. The first is when teachers discover how to teach phonics effectively, as this liberates writing. The second is the process of “storymaking” which involves moving from telling into writing, using shared writing. My experience is that most teachers do not use shared writing and therefore do not teach writing.

How beneficial do you think the approaches are for secondary pupils?

When I was at secondary school no one ever showed me how to write. Have things changed? Learning textual patterns in a multi-sensory way so that the students acquire the underlying linguistic patterns that they need to express themselves, and being shown how to craft language, is highly powerful for any student at any stage of education. I’m not sure why teachers do not teach writing but I know that the majority do not – especially across the curriculum.

Do you believe the end of the National Strategies will lead to more freedom in the curriculum for teachers to pursue activities they feel passionate about, such as creative writing? 

The strategies have improved professional knowledge and skill in primary schools beyond all imagining. There will always be more to learn about learning and teaching. I do hope that we have a chance to focus on motivating children as well as encouraging teachers to experiment. In each school, we have to find out how to establish systems that will help the children grow and flourish, changing their life opportunities. My best teaching has always been when I am excited about an idea and inventing the teaching as the lesson develops. Over-planning can lead to dull teaching because you are no longer responding to what is developing. Great teaching is a dynamic art. I do think that the importance of creative writing has been misunderstood. It is where children gain confidence as writers and learn how to craft language. People who devise curriculum start from the point of thinking about the types of writing to be covered rather than focussing on how to develop a young writer.

When you worked as a headteacher, what did you find hardest?

Paperwork. I was useless at it and had a very full bottom drawer. Dealing with buildings was not much fun either. However, I loved my school and we did some great things together – we made books, hatched butterflies, launched hot air balloons, wrote poems and stories, spent hours drawing and painting. I hope that it was a memorable education.

What has been the biggest change you have seen in education since first becoming a teacher and If you could change one thing in primary education what would it be?

The biggest change has to be national accountability. Personally, I would get rid of league tables immediately, broaden the basis on which schools are judged and work hard to find ways to demonstrate value-added.

You were recently quoted as saying that too many children were left to watch TV instead of being read a bedtime story, often by busy middle-class parents. Often attributed to class, do you then see this as a wider issue? What are the benefits of reading a bedtime story to your child?

We know from Gordon Wells’ research that the regular story at home for preschool children is a powerful indicator of educational success. It is not just a matter of language acquisition which enables confidence in early reading and writing but also the development of abstract thought. There are 3 key ingredients – the bedtime story, interactive conversation and play. When the TV is turned on, conversation fades. Realistically, we know that poverty often brings many children into school whose language is under-developed but this is not exclusively an issue for those who work in challenging areas. Too much TV and computer games are not healthy for language development.  A balanced diet may be beneficial.

In June we are launching the Tell Me a Story campaign to raise awareness that sharing stories with children is crucial to them developing the literacy skills they need to fulfil their potential, which we know is also at the heart of Talk for Writing. If parents could only do one thing what do you think it should be?

Tell lots of stories. These can be stories from books, local stories, traditional tales such as the Gingerbread Man, stories about your own childhood, stories about members of your family, stories about things that you have done together as well as making up new stories together. Just tell stories and read stories and that will be more than enough.